Curse

Sytherek · Nov 02, 2010, 04:05 AM // 04:05

I find the best PuGs early in the morning, EST, before 10AM. Really good ones, too. They just seem to be in the minority. I did Gyala Hatchery the other day with PuGs. One was great fun, one was very dull but functional, and the last one SUCKED irukandji tentacles.

I'm more than happy to discuss builds and strategy. My characters can run multiple builds; in Gyala yesterday, I ran my Rit as an Explosive MM in a very fun group.

Where it gets ugly: People who want to DICTATE builds. That, and few wish to discuss how to approach a given mission / dungeon.

I often have very limited time to play. I've been doing this for five years, and I know what does and doesn't work; I don;t want to debate for an hour over some minor detail of my build (or someone else's, for that matter). SO my goal is to get in and get things done.

I'm not saying all humans are bad players -- I am saying that playing with humans is very hit-or-miss. Heroes & henchmen are very consistent. If my goal is to simply play the game, H/H is the way to go.

I'm not in-game often enough to participate in a guild -- in fact, that's one of the appeals of GW, in that I can play without or without people according to my needs and desires.

What's wrong with that?

Bandwagon · Nov 02, 2010, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by sytherek

Why do groups stand around for hours, spamming "GLF 2 monks 2 go!" -- particularly when it's a six-man mission? Who NEEDS two healing monks on a six-man? And why not just throw on heroes and GO, rather than spam for hours? Really dumb.

The short of it is that they are fools, the long answer: human monks are INHERENTLY better in every single way shape and form because they can actually play triage intelligently (this is the presumption). A good monk 'can' carry a bad grp of players through content where a bad monk would have let them all fail.

It may also stem from the fact that many people who play with monk heroes may not necessarily have a lot or bothered to procure a lot of monk skills so they slap stupid #&@^ like Sig of Devotion and Healing Breeze with their totally awesome UA build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytherek

I find the best PuGs early in the morning, EST, before 10AM. Really good ones, too. They just seem to be in the minority. I did Gyala Hatchery the other day with PuGs. One was great fun, one was very dull but functional, and the last one SUCKED irukandji tentacles.

Assuming you are playing in a North American Timezone, you were grping with the euro crowd, who are by and large just plain better than NA crowds (yes this is stereotypical beyond belief but Europe does have the majority of the competitive player base)

Quote:

That, and few wish to discuss how to approach a given mission / dungeon.

This is intelligent game play, and is what makes GW PvE what it is.

Shayne Hawke · Nov 02, 2010, 04:44 AM // 04:44

If your point here is that hero/hench teams allow you to get things done and run the bars you want to, I think a lot of us here were aware of that years ago. Pugging with a setup that's unfamiliar to the rest of your team doesn't work when more than one person on your team wants to play "hero".

StormDragonZ · Nov 02, 2010, 04:53 AM // 04:53

- There was a Monk today who would leave if the first boss wasn't the Monk boss known as Shalis Ironmantle. Apparently, he said it would be impossible in HM if the Monk boss doesn't show up first.
- There was a Mesmer today that used a Visions of Regret who wouldn't join a group unless there was at least two Monks already in the group.
- There was a Warrior today that got angry at us for pointing out he was using an axe with the elite skill Dwarven Battle Stance and deliberately aggroed a lot of enemies saying "it does work, watch!" and then we all die.
- There was a Paragon today that thought Paragons use bows, not spears.
- There was a Dervish today that was Level 17 and wondered why no one wanted him to join. Best part was he couldn't do HM and said he could... on his Warrior... that he deleted.

Good times today. Good times.

Daesu · Nov 02, 2010, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Most of the best players I've played with or befriended came from PUGs and I'd never give them up. Bars become tighter in harder areas anyway regardless if you PUG or H/H.

That's just you, dont assume the same for ALL of us.

The difference is heroes obey your skill planning for team synergy while PUGs usually do not.

mr monk rupsie · Nov 02, 2010, 07:05 AM // 07:05

It is actually funny you are right. Also with 3 open slots and heroes you can add an incredible amount of power skills and gaps you need to fill.

Here is a funny/sad event: Ethernal grove on HM trying to get the bonus.

With 4 guildies we did not manage to complete it 4 times in a row. But once we split up with 2 people + heroes, we both steamrolled at the 2nd attempt.

Point is that once you have the option to synergy your party, the succes rate is a lot higher then that of a pug/guild group.

Sharkinu · Nov 02, 2010, 07:33 AM // 07:33

On my ranger I found it easier an faster to find/form a group while spamming: "Ranger looking for nubs for HM + bonus". Lucky me, most of them at least know how to follow orders.

Kojima · Nov 02, 2010, 07:34 AM // 07:34

they did ruin PUGs... They made PUGs unneeded...lol

Daesu · Nov 02, 2010, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kojima

they did ruin PUGs... They made PUGs unneeded...lol

Thankfully so. If people dont want to PUG there is no point forcing them to, they would just sabotage the team and leave in the middle of the mission.

wilebill · Nov 02, 2010, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Hurrah for Enraged Lunge! And Otyugh's Cry that is always on my BM build.

Thanks so much for this post. New players who wonder why vets either play with Guildies or use Heroes and Hench will understand our point of view a bit better. PUGs are the absolute pits!

Poor Alesia. She dies so much because her full name is Alesia Baptiste. If only she had been named Alesia Methodiste she would have been much smarter!

Milennin · Nov 02, 2010, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Just yesterday I saw someone in need of Ooze Pit HM, so I decided to join the PUG since I hadn't planned anything else anyway and I like helping out people. Of course they ask me to show my build, which is pretty much your average 100 Blades build, and get to tell to bring other specific skills because "we can't do without it this and that" crap story and force me to bring another build. I refuse and get kicked of course.
Of course you can't do it with a 100 Blades build... oh wait, that's why H/H'd it that morning under 30 minutes using that exact same build.

Makes me go /facepalm, and it's a nice reminder of why I don't play much with human players anymore. Heroes don't complain about what I bring. Heroes run the builds I want them to bring, and run them well. Even henchmen are often better than human players, at least they're reliable and don't complain and moan or force you to run lesser builds.

Hells Fury · Nov 02, 2010, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytherek

Frustrated, my ranger took Jora (Dragon Slash), Gwen (Pain Dom), Vekk (Dirt Bunny), Alesia, and Orion. Took about 15 minutes, I got bonus + mission on Hard Mode.

Omg, melee hero, seriously? Alesia as heal? Orion for HM?

Real men would use some sort of SoS heal rit hero with splinter , N/Rt heal, MM + necro hench + mesmer hench along with your beast mastery build (enraged lunge + you chucking with spear spreading splinter).

Also anyone who insist to bring melee heroes in ... well anything (xcept nf require) is a no no tnx cya, from me.

Well i think thats your problem , otherwise i wouldn't mind having beast mastery ranger with me in mission.

I usualy don't have problem finding good pugs in z missions etc. (and by pugs i mean another person with heroes).

Space · Nov 02, 2010, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Anyone using PuG's for hard mode content is asking for trouble. It's not generally worth the miniscule reward in extra zcoins for zaishen missions to get frustrated over.

Sure PuG's can be great fun for messing around in normal mode with but the more random people you take the greater the likelihood you have someone in your group that doesn't know the area / mission, and the greater the chance of failure. Hard mode is pretty unforgiving, especially in the 6 and 4 man team areas. I'd rather not take that risk personally.

qazwersder · Nov 02, 2010, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

Omg, melee hero, seriously? Alesia as heal? Orion for HM?

Real men would use some sort of SoS heal rit hero with splinter , N/Rt heal, MM + necro hench + mesmer hench along with your beast mastery build (enraged lunge + you chucking with spear spreading splinter).

Also anyone who insist to bring melee heroes in ... well anything (xcept nf require) is a no no tnx cya, from me.

Well i think thats your problem , otherwise i wouldn't mind having beast mastery ranger with me in mission.

I usualy don't have problem finding good pugs in z missions etc. (and by pugs i mean another person with heroes).

He pointed out earlier that he plays with those hero's because he likes it. He knows that sos, mesmers and Necros all exist but chooses not to play with them and the meta hero builds.

Clearly the heroes/henchmen he chose are sufficient to get through the mission on HM. Not everything need be a speed clear.

Hells Fury · Nov 02, 2010, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by qazwersder

He pointed out earlier that he plays with those hero's because he likes it. He knows that sos, mesmers and Necros all exist but chooses not to play with them and the meta hero builds.

Clearly the heroes/henchmen he chose are sufficient to get through the mission on HM. Not everything need be a speed clear.

I'm ok with that.

BUT

How can he find fun in running melee heroes. I mean just observe the AI behavior of melee heroes. They attack one target. Then you call another target. They go insta retard mode. They bump between foes desperatly trying to get to the called target. After target is dead, you call another. They come first to you (to say hi or w/e i don't get why that's happening) then they go to targeted foe. Not to mention the AI does not use melee skills properly or often as they should.

Kojima · Nov 02, 2010, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milennin

Just yesterday I saw someone in need of Ooze Pit HM, so I decided to join the PUG since I hadn't planned anything else anyway and I like helping out people. Of course they ask me to show my build, which is pretty much your average 100 Blades build, and get to tell to bring other specific skills because "we can't do without it this and that" crap story and force me to bring another build. I refuse and get kicked of course.
Of course you can't do it with a 100 Blades build... oh wait, that's why H/H'd it that morning under 30 minutes using that exact same build.

Makes me go /facepalm, and it's a nice reminder of why I don't play much with human players anymore. Heroes don't complain about what I bring. Heroes run the builds I want them to bring, and run them well. Even henchmen are often better than human players, at least they're reliable and don't complain and moan or force you to run lesser builds.

I think players should also learn to trust other players' judgement. As long as they are not some noob builds why can't they bring along their build as long as it has a rez in it? Sometimes, surprises can and will happen.

Arutima · Nov 02, 2010, 12:48 PM // 12:48

the rule is :

guild groups > H/H group > good pug group (yes, they do exist) >>>>>>doggy poo >>>>> bad pugs (about 95% of them)

even with pug, i never change my build of read the wind , prep shot, dmg skill, dmg skill, three pve skills (usually vanguard assassin, technobabble and "i am the strongest") + rez skill

i have all pve titles maxed, so i use prep shot to spam them . I used to run sabway years (i've quit the game for two years, just came back) and now i am running some dual ritualists build , after reading all the great pve buffs rits got. Hm is getting even more easier now.

MithranArkanere · Nov 02, 2010, 01:00 PM // 13:00

I usually never have problems at euro time, excepting with French people (sorry guys, of course it's not all of you, but it has been too many of you). During weekends, when I stay until later, it's a bit harder to get a decent pug.

But it's not about their builds or how they play. It's about OBEDIENCE.
If they don't OBEY, but instead they act on their own, we don't have a party, we have a bunch idiots soloing to their death.
When they understand simple radar commands like:
- "Let this patrol pass, and slip without agroing them".
- "There are some coming from here, fall back so we don't over-aggro".
- "Don't go through here, follow this other path"
Or calls for target, then the party is done.
I miss the /facepalm emote when a mesmer tries to interrupt a warrior instead interrupting the Meteor shower I've been pinging for 4 seconds.

After they tweaked the henchmen builds to something somehow more proper (Dunham now Interrupts and all!!) you no longer need so much help in Prophecies if you get some heroes, so I only party with people to help them, never to make things for myself, since excepting the elite areas and a couple of dungeons, I work better alone.

Milennin · Nov 02, 2010, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

I miss the /facepalm emote when a mesmer tries to interrupt a warrior instead interrupting the Meteor shower I've been pinging for 4 seconds.

Try /doh =p

Anyway yeah, I also hate it when you're party leader in a PUG, and give out basic instructions and people plainly ignore them and go their own way, splitting up the party into two. /doh

Sytherek · Nov 02, 2010, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

Omg, melee hero, seriously? Alesia as heal? Orion for HM?

Real men would use some sort of SoS heal rit hero with splinter , N/Rt heal, MM + necro hench + mesmer hench along with your beast mastery build (enraged lunge + you chucking with spear spreading splinter).

Also anyone who insist to bring melee heroes in ... well anything (xcept nf require) is a no no tnx cya, from me.

Well i think thats your problem , otherwise i wouldn't mind having beast mastery ranger with me in mission.

I usualy don't have problem finding good pugs in z missions etc. (and by pugs i mean another person with heroes).

What a condescending, elitist, and insulting attitude you have there! You're a perfect example of the kind of player that drives people like me away from human groups, and online games in general.

GW isn't chess; we don't have to play with identical pieces.

Here's the shocker for folk like you: I can beat the game IN HARD MODE well, quickly, and have fun WITHOUT running your so-called "optimized" "manly" builds. Really. I clear dungeons, roll through missions, and vanquish with groups that would make you shudder. All in Hard Mode.

So who's the better player -- the one who uses a few cookie-cutter builds, or the one who uses a wide variety of classes and builds?

As for melee heroes, here's what I run on Jora. I watch her skill bar, and she plays it quite well:

Dragon Slash
Sun and Moon Slash
Hamstring
Kneecutter
Deadly Reposte
Remedy Signet
For Great Justice
Watch Yourself

Hundred Blades doesn't work as well. The AI seems to say "I have an AoE skill, so it runs around looking for more than one target to hit when running HB. With Dragon Slash, Jora focuses on single targets, and spends more time killing and less time running.

My ranger runs one of two builds:

"I am the Strongest"
Volley or Crossfire
Enraged Lunge
Predator's Pounce
Otyugh's Cry
Comfort Animal
Pain Inverter
Death Pact Signet

Or she runs:

"I am the Strongest"
Punishing Shot
Sloth Hunter's Shot
Predator's Pounce
Otyugh's Cry
Comfort Animal
Pain Inverter
Death Pact Signet

When I don't want to argue with people, I run a no-pet build:

"I am the Strongest"
Splinter Weapon
Barrage
Lightning Reflexes
Distracting Shot
Pain Inverter
Zojun's Haste
Flesh of my Flesh

Splinter is too situational for my taste. It is a waste of a skill slot if enemies don't clump.

I have a half-dozen other builds for various purposes, but those two are my primary set-ups. I run a Hearty Dune Lizard named Fluffy, which I've had for five years, since level 17.

I don't carry an interrupt with my Enraged Lunge build because Ranger interrupts suck -- too slow in Hard Mode (flight time, even with a recurve bow) and little damage. A Mesmer is vastly better for interrupting.

As for synergies: Jora and Hayda plus an Orders necro can be exceptionally effective. I often run Hayda because she can provide so many different synergies.

SoS on a hero is effective, but ugly, because the hero AI does not effectively maintain their spirits, nor can they move them with Summon Spirits (it being a human-only skill). The SoS Spirits are like minions, firing randomly. Hero spirits makes for good pressure, but suck at spiking. Sure, I can micro the Spam Rit, but I don't want to. I bring heroes to support my character.

Jora, running the build above, is very effective, particularly in situations where casters are useless. She cuts down enemy squishies quite fast, and listens to my target commands.

I generally don't use healer heroes, though I do have ZB and WoH healers suited up when required. Kihm in Nightfall and Lina in GW:EN are quite good. I have a N/Rt, but don't use it often. I usually don't take any Necro heroes; I'm not a big fan of MMs. Minions slow a group down, tend to aggro on their own, and generally don't add much in hard mode other than damage absorption.

It's a GAME. A very complex one at that, too. And there are many effective and fun ways to "win" that don't require mindless parroting of PvX Wiki.